The meeting was opened by the Chairman at 12.50..

Those present.
Chairman, Vice chairman, Treasurer, Secretary, Assistant Secretary
Lancastrian Midland North Western
OES Scotland OES Wales South Western
K.C.L.C. Breed rep. and the East Anglian.

Apologies. . South Eastern OES club Northern Ireland, Mrs R Burns, Mrs D Malins and Mrs M McWilliam.

Minutes of meeting held on 24 October 2004.

These had been received and read by the members.
Acceptance of the minutes Proposed by Lancastrian Seconded by the East Anglian. Accepted by the meeting.

Matters Arising.
None

Correspondence.
The Secretary had forwarded copies of all correspondence which he felt the clubs should see prior to the meeting.
All routine items had been dealt with and the list of these was read to the meeting.
The secretary explained how he had received a call from Mr S Hall about an article in dog world on a JDP seminar. This article was by Mr Andrew Brace and reported on how a seminar was conducted without anybody to give a breed presentation and only two dogs to judge and critique. Representations had been made to the K C and the seminar passes had been declared void. The Lancastrian gave the meeting an insight into the JDP and it was agreed that the secretary would write and ask the K C for details of the scheme in the hope this would throw some light on how it tied in with the breed judging criteria.

Judging Lists.
A3 list. The secretary informed the meeting that the K C had agreed that the wording for the extra criteria covering the hands on seminar as printed in the agenda was acceptable. This is to be added prion to sending the end of year returns. A short discussion on the type of dog used in this seminar followed.

Breed Council Constitution.
` The new constitution had been voted on and accepted at the AGM.
Breed Liaison Council.
The breed liaison rep reported that most of the current items under discussion by the breed liaison group were covered elsewhere on the agenda. There had been a lot of discussion on the loss of C C's across several breeds and this was causing concern.
Website.
The secretary told the meeting that the new website with its own domain name (www.oesbreedcouncil.org.uk ) was now up and running. The breed liaison rep reported that the Russian web site was an excellent example and was becoming the web site for the OES world wide and he felt that the breed council should be linked to it. I can confirm that the site was linked to the breed council site in September 2004.
The chairman reminded members of the large amount of work involved in keeping a site up to date and thanked the secretary for his work on the breed council site.

C C Allocation.

The secretary outlined the current situation with the changes due in 2007 and who the K C had requested that we submit our suggestions for the allocation in 2008.Clubs had previously been asked for their suggestions and these had been circulated to all clubs. The Lancastrian held the view that the next show to lose C C's would be Darlington and they felt that shows would become more centralised. The North Western stressed the need for local show to retain their C C's.
The South Western felt that the number of C C's allocated to the breed clubs should be increased. The Lancastrian told the meeting that looking back over the distribution for many years showed that the ratio of 2 to 1 between general champ shows and the clubs. Scotland raised the point the that K C in deciding who lost C C's seemed to take no account of the entry. At Blackpool the West Highland were going to lose theirs despite this show having the largest entry.
Members felt the only real solution was to encourage an increase in entries, other suggestions included a rotation for general championship shows.
The Chairman summarised the discussion and stressed the need for a proposal to be agreed by the meeting.
The general feeling of the meeting was that the K C was not listening to the clubs but would put forward the following proposal. The Three Counties show being one of three at Malvern should lose its C C's in 2008 and these would then be allocated to the East of England show, thus giving a better geographic spread. However if this show proved unacceptable to the K C then the Southern Counties should have the C C's.

Champions Class.
This had been raised by a number of clubs and has in the passed been taken to the K C by the breed liaison group. The subject has also been raised at numerous open forum meetings with the K C each time being rejected a not wanted by the exhibitors or show committees. The Welsh club stated that when they included a champion's class the exhibitors still entered the open class. The North Western felt a move toward the European system would help and we must work on the K C's resistance to change. Scotland explained that the K C at a local meeting held the view that the winner of a Champions class must challenge for the C.C. not just best of breed, as the C.C. might not go to the best dog. The meeting agreed that a survey should be implemented to try and find the true depth of feeling on this subject. The web site should be used to conduct a survey of exhibitors and the press contacted to sound out the possibility of a national survey.

Seminar.
The breed liaison rep hoped the breed council would run a seminar on DNA. The secretary explained that the original proposal to run a hands on seminar had been overtaken by events else where. The Welsh club and the Old English Sheepdog club had both run seminars within the last month and the one scheduled by the Midland had been cancelled through lack of support. Several general championship shows are also running seminars and this was reducing the need for the breed council to run one. He also told the meeting that all those judges on the breed council list with the exception of 2 had now taken and passed the exam.
The chairman expressed the view the as clubs accepted judges for their judging lists perhaps it should be them not the breed council who should organise seminars. However the Lancastrian felt the breed council would get better support if they organised such events. It was agreed to hold over the decision on future seminars until AOB.

Hip Score.
The Secretary reported that he had written to the K C breeders scheme organizer and requested that hip scoring be included in the scheme for Old English Sheepdogs as agreed at the previous meeting. A follow up call prior to the meeting revealed that although they had agreed to insert the requirement this had not been done as the whole scheme was under review and would be sent out to clubs for comment. The general feeling was that all stock should be hip scored and eye tested to improve the quality of the stock. Scotland felt that a limit should be set on what was a reasonable hip score and only breeding stock meeting they requirement should be registered. The also raised the problems which could arise from very uneven hip scores. The question was raised on the quality of dogs and the possibility of following some continental countries where limits were set on stud dogs. The view was also expressed that it was safer to us a dog with say a score of 12 on a bitch with say 30 and then select the next generation for breeding rather than using a dog with zero. Scotland expressed that puppy farmers would still manipulate the figures to get round the changes. Concern was also expressed of the loop holes in the system which allows a dog to be hip scored with no identification which means there is nothing to stop it being represented as a different dog. The same concern was expressed over eye tests as the euro scheme is the only one which insists in the dog having a microchip and this is not the one which is readily available.
The Scottish club stressed that the K C claim that they are working for the betterment of dogs and yet they are accepting registrations for back to back litters and the is about income not health. The view was expressed that if the K C refused to register these litters other organisations may spring up.
The breed liaison rep reported that this was not new and the same thing had been raised in the early 1990's
The chairman summarized the discussion and it was agreed that the secretary would write to the K C and offer to help in the review of the breeders scheme for Old English Sheepdogs.
Annual Award.
The secretary had forwarded a copy of the e-mail he had received on this subject to all member clubs. He asked the members how they felt about items being sent direct to the breed council secretary or would they prefer the person be redirected to that members own club. This was thought to be a better route of communication. The Scottish view on making of an annual award was that is was not required as they had their own system of rewarding the work of members. This was a view expressed by most clubs and it was agreed that the secretary would write to the person who had raised this matter and suggest that they approach their own breed club.
Venue.
The Chairman asked the members for their views on the venue. The secretary explained that he had experienced problems in getting confirmation from the owners of the booking and the only in the last week had new management taken over and they had been very helpful. The room cost was now £50 to include tea & coffee but the manager had offered to supply a buffet for twenty for £80 which had been accepted. It was agreed that the breed council would hold their next meeting at this venue and the secretary would investigate the other room available which would hold 100 people and be suitable for a seminar.
The Breed liaison rep informed that the Corus Hotel just down the road would offer overnight accommodation and a special rate and he would give anybody interested the details.

Items Reserved.
None.

A.O.B.
The Welsh Club raised the subject of historical affixes. In the Breed record supplement for the utility group a puppy had been registered with the name Shepton Sally. They understood that "Shepton" was a protected affix by the Old English Sheepdog Club and had raised the matter with the K C. The K C replied that the protection had lapsed in 1996 as no reply had been received after they wrote to the club asking if they wished to renew the protection. The secretary was asked to write to the Old English Sheepdog Club and ask it the protection had been renewed and if not, have they and plans to renew it. The breed liaison rep felt it was time for affixes to have world wide protection now that the pet passport is in operation.
The Welsh club had received a letter from Mrs P Mills on the subject of DNA which was read to the meeting. The breed liaison rep told the meeting that this dealt with the matter he wished to bring up on behalf of the East Anglian club. He then proceeded to outline the plan that Mr& Mills were considering.
Discussions had been held with Dr J Sampson of the K C health department, on the best way of getting a scheme underway for the eventual DNA testing for hereditary conditions. He had informed them that the timing could not be better as the A.H.T. were at present taking DNA samples free of charge.
He advised that the best courses of action was to open an account and start fund raising, however he also stressed that in order to get the best support and possible extra funding from the K C the breed council should play a major role and all the breed clubs encouraged to support the fund raising.
Dr Sampson is willing to attend the breed council and explain the principals behind DNA testing. With the next meeting due in October this would be a good time for a seminar not just for the breed council members but any owner, breeder or supporter of the breed who is interested in supporting the scheme. The health survey should have published its initial findings by this time and it would therefore be easier to suggest what health problem should be researched.
The programme would start with about five groups and it was hoped to reach 100 in the long term. Several members raised the question of cost and the meeting was told that costs are coming down every year, as several companies would be interested in the study. The initial cost taken from a KC publication was £15000.
Organisations who set up a fund and raise money for research are then entitled to submit a proposal too the K C Health Fund for financial assistance.
The subject of using DNA as proof of the sire and the legal protection of DNA samples was also raised by members.
Mrs Helen Harris introduced a paper she had written for the Greater London magazine (Yours Faithfully) and this was read to the meeting. Copies were then given to all members present and copies supplied for these clubs unable to attend. Reference was also made to a presentation made to the breed council in April 2003 by Mrs a Little on eye testing for H.C and a discussion which had taken on an internet chat site.
Some of the fund raising ideas raised in Mrs Harris's paper were discussed including donations on show entry forms through donations from all the breed clubs.
It was suggested and agreed that the Breed council would hold a seminar and invite Dr Sampson to come and explain the process of DNA testing and then answer questions from the members. This would take the place of the proposed hands on seminar a subject already covered by the breed clubs and general societies.
The meeting was informed that Mr& Mrs Mills would be opening an account with the Halifax and fund raising had started.
The breed liaison rep said he was sure the American's would support any research using DNA. This raised the question about some of the health problems found overseas which had not yet appeared here. Also of concern was how once a problem had been identified in a dog it could be prevented from being used at stud.
The Secretary asked if the samples taken for research would be made available to the K.C. for DNA profiling and the data bank.
The Chairman gave a summery of the discussion and the Scottish club stressed the need to identify the target which needed to be raised.
The East Anglian had already agreed to donate 10% of the clubs deposit account to the fund and the breed council Treasurer proposed that they should donate £300. The Chair asked for any dissenting voices. None were made and the proposal was carried.
The Lancastrian stressed the point that the club members would need to be convinced if we were to get them involved. Another question was on getting access to the addresses of new owners from the K C, as not all puppies registered come from breeders who are club members.
The Chairman suggested that the Breed liaison rep should also be the DNA rep.

Date of next meeting.
The next meeting will be held on the 23rd of October 2005.

The meeting closed at 15.40.

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